Viewing 13 posts - 1 through 13 (of 13 total)
  • Jack
    Participant
    Post count: 2
    #37518 |

    Can a Deadly Fist Soulknife using Crystal Gauntlets allocate the Crystal Gauntlets Enhancement bonus as Special abilities instead of trying to use it for +1 to hit and damage?

    I think the answer is no, but I’m encountering someone arguing otherwise, and I couldn’t find an official ruling on the matter, so I thought I would ask.

    Quintain
    Participant
    Post count: 30
    #37519 |

    No, there is only the reference to the enhancement bonus that the gloves grant. However, what it does is open up the bonuses from his enhanced mind blade to be used as weapon special abilities instead of simple enhancement bonuses.

    Which only matters, really, if the characters enhanced mind blade class feature isn’t high enough to purchase the weapon special ability by itself.

    Jack
    Participant
    Post count: 2
    #37521 |

    The player in question is trying to get +1 unarmed strikes with (after an AoMF) +17 worth of special abilities by level 20. He’s arguing that the bonus granted by the gloves is not a weapon enhancement bonus, but the ‘enhancement bonus’ granted by the class feature which you’re able to reallocate as a weapon special ability.

    And looking at the rules text, I can very much see how he could read it that way.

    ATalsen
    Participant
    Post count: 3
    #37522 |

    The player in question is trying to get +1 unarmed strikes with (after an AoMF) +17 worth of special abilities by level 20.

    Ok, well, an Amulet of Mighty Fists allows direct purchases of weapon specials, so no weird rules on that one. And at +5 that’s at least 100,000 gp.

    Crystal Gauntlets +3 are 100,800 gp, so that’s a lot of treasure to sink in that.

    But it pretty much works, yeah. The Gauntlets can’t be reassigned to weapon specials, but that means at most he is ‘missing’ 2 points off the specials (since getting weapon specials requires that +1 base). Not really significant when we are talking about 14 plusses worth of special weapon abilities.

    And he can pick up the Improved Enhancement, Blade Skill for an additional +1 in there…

    I’m curious at what that 14 point list of weapon specials is intended to be?

    Balance wise, if you are DM and prefer to have him spend for direct plusses, just put more DR-using creatures in, and/or things with high AC – those plusses are valuable in allowing you to hit tough opponents, and in overcoming various types of DR (which Greater Magic Weapon / Greater Magic Fang does not allow).

    http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities#TOC-Overcoming-DR

    Or, as always recommended, talk to him about not buying the abilities in a way that you don’t like.

    Quintain
    Participant
    Post count: 30
    #37526 |

    The player in question is trying to get +1 unarmed strikes with (after an AoMF) +17 worth of special abilities by level 20. He’s arguing that the bonus granted by the gloves is not a weapon enhancement bonus, but the ‘enhancement bonus’ granted by the class feature which you’re able to reallocate as a weapon special ability.

    And looking at the rules text, I can very much see how he could read it that way.

    Let’s stipulate that the player’s interpretation is correct (questionable, but let’s go with it — it still has problems).

    What your player is trying is still not possible:

    When a character with empowered strikes uses these
    gauntlets in this fashion, the enhancement bonus and the
    maximum enhancement bonus of the empowered strikes
    are increased by the enhancement bonus of the crystal
    gauntlets, although any enhancement bonus above +5 is lost
    .

    You will notice the limit of +5 enhancement bonus applied. Even if it did allow for direct purchase of weapon special abilities, the amount it would allow is still limited by the +5 amount. Any time your player would want to try to purchase anything that exceeded the sum of +5 via the enhanced mind blade class feature, the gauntlets would provide less benefit automatically until +5 is reached.

    Example: let’s say he has a +3 gauntlets…and he purchases Mindfeeder with it.

    So, you have mindfeeder unarmed strikes at this point. He then purchases holy. So he’s now at the +5 limit as described in the item rules. If he tries to purchase any more weapon abilities…say Lucky. At this point, your purchases force the gauntlets to only provide a +2 bonus (anything over +5 is lost)…and since the purchases by normal enhanced mind blade are now at +3 and the +2 from the gauntlets isn’t enough to provide for Mindfeeder, so Mindfeeder is lost and the +2 enhancement bonus is now “open”.

    What the gauntlets are intended to do is allow for the soulknife to have a higher level bonus to his weapon than his level would otherwise indicate, it still will not allow anything greater than the limits that his class abilities set.

    The gauntlets are specifically described so they cannot be used to exceed the normal magical item rules that Pathfinder sets (+5 enhancement bonus maximum, with +5 weapon special abilities maximum to a total of +10 on a weapon) — and that is for normal weapons. Unarmed strikes are even more restricted (topping off at +5 — see AomF).

    You won’t be able to use them to stack with AoMF, either, as both provide enhancement bonuses…and enhancement bonuses do not stack.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by  Quintain.
    Quintain
    Participant
    Post count: 30
    #37528 |

    Note to above: However, I’m looking at the Paizo forums and there seems to be a consensus that you can stack multiple weapon abilities from multiple items that mimic the amulet’s effects, just not the +1 to +5 enhancement bonuses.

    Although there is a hard cap of +10 when it comes to them in combination.

    http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qd9

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by  Quintain.
    Jack
    Participant
    Post count: 2
    #37531 |

    Huh.

    So how does the class feature that gives you a +1 enhancement work? It gives you a +1 early on, and you still cap out at +10, at which point that extra +1 is useless?

    Quintain
    Participant
    Post count: 30
    #37532 |

    From my reading of all of this, the gloves are only really useful if you do some level dipping away from the soulknife class into something else, once you are of a level where the gauntlets start losing their ability to grant enhancement bonuses.

    Once you reach that point, you don’t need the gauntlets any longer.

    ATalsen
    Participant
    Post count: 3
    #37556 |

    When a character with empowered strikes uses these gauntlets in this fashion, the enhancement bonus and the maximum enhancement bonus of the empowered strikes are increased by the enhancement bonus of the crystal gauntlets, although any enhancement bonus above +5 is lost

    Even if it did allow for direct purchase of weapon special abilities, the amount it would allow is still limited by the +5 amount.

    But “Enhancement Bonus” is not the same as weapon special abilities. “Enhancement Bonus” is referring only to the weapons ‘plusses’, not its other abilities.

    So if we were to revise that paragraph with that understanding in mind we have this:

    When a character with empowered strikes uses these gauntlets in this fashion, current weapons plus and the maximum weapons plus .of the empowered strikes are increased by the plus value of the crystal gauntlets, although any weapons plus above +5 is lost

    Which does not support any limits on the amount of weapon special qualities that are added.
    You might, however, decide to invoke the magic weapon section and say the total sum of enhancement and special qualities is limited to 10 on a given weapon.

    Example and proof that “Enhancement Bonuses” refers only to plusses:

    http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons

    “Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. They apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat.”
    “A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10. A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.”

    Unarmed strikes are even more restricted (topping off at +5 — see AomF).

    Unarmed strikes are not in any way restricted more so that any normal weapon. It’s hard to find a WAY to do more than add +5 to them (since AoMF is the main method and IT tops out at adding +5 worth), but no mechanical restriction exists if you do find an alternate way. And this path of building certainly allows adding more than 5, even without anything other than the core class abilities.

    You won’t be able to use them to stack with AoMF, either, as both provide enhancement bonuses…and enhancement bonuses do not stack.

    Right, Enhancement Bonuses do not stack, but as long as the amulet is a not use to provide any enhancement bonuses (any “plusses”), then all is well – the amulet can contain any amount of special up to its max of 5 points worth and those will be added just fine – whether or not the unarmed person is a Soulknife.

    Ultimately the DM should decide what to do based on talking with the player and determining what power level is best for the game. From a purely RAW perspective there are not the ‘+5 total’ limits you were referring to.

    If I were DM, I’d limit the weapon to the total +10 from summing core Soulknife and Gauntlets, and allow the AoMF to add its own “5 points of specials” on top of that, since that is the fairest RAW determination, AND I run high powered games where that would not overbalance things.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by  ATalsen.
    Quintain
    Participant
    Post count: 30
    #37558 |

    Which does not support any limits on the amount of weapon special qualities that are added.
    You might, however, decide to invoke the magic weapon section and say the total sum of enhancement and special qualities is limited to 10 on a given weapon.

    Sorry, but no. It is no where near logical to allow for the purchase of weapon special abilities with enhancement bonuses using the gauntlets and not apply the restriction of a maximum of +5 to the enhancement bonus part when the item description doesn’t even mention item special abilities.

    You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

    If you want 17 special abilities, get two AoMFs (one in the belt slot and one in the neck slot — magic items can be created to use different slots by RAW), the gloves, and you’ll get what you want all by RAW with no manner of shenanigans with the gloves.

    It’s not hard, but don’t try to break the gloves to get what you want when it is well within reach by Paizo rules.

    Quintain
    Participant
    Post count: 30
    #37559 |

    Now, that’s not to say that crystal gauntlets can’t be created that remove that limitation (magic item creation being in the realm of imagination, after all). But not at the gold piece cost of the gloves as they exist now.

    ATalsen
    Participant
    Post count: 3
    #37561 |

    Sorry, but no. It is nowhere near logical to allow for the purchase of weapon special abilities with enhancement bonuses using the gauntlets and not apply the restriction of a maximum of +5 to the enhancement bonus part when the item description doesn’t even mention item special abilities.

    Maybe I’m not following your statements then.
    First off, I’m not on the wagon that assumes you can convert the gauntlets ‘plusses’ into weapon specials – plusses are different than specials is my entire stance.

    So at 20th, with everything in place, I’m assuming an AoMF gives 5 points of specials that will stack with everything else, and that you will get 9 allocable points from the Soulknife, and a flat +3 Enhancement Bonus from the gauntlets.
    That results in a +3 weapon with effectively 14 points of weapon specials on it.

    The +3 does not meet/exceed any of the prohibitions or maximums that the gauntlets provide. The weapon special enhancements are not coming from the gauntlets, so no gauntlet restrictions would apply in even the widest reading.
    That seems totally RAW legal to me. Maybe not something a DM wants to see, but that’s a separate topic.

    Now if you DO assume the gauntlets can convert their value into either ‘plusses’ or ‘weapon specials’ then whatever you convert into weapons specials will also never meet or exceed the limits applied by the gauntlets because the limits apply ONLY to the ‘plusses’ (Enhancement Bonus).
    Specifically: “…any enhancement bonus above +5 is lost…” applies ONLY to actual enhancement bonuses, and in neither case is the enhancement bonus ever going to rise above +3.

    I’ve already shown that Enhancement Bonus is separate from total bonuses via the rules quotes, so it’s hard for me to see any other interpretation.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by  ATalsen.
    Quintain
    Participant
    Post count: 30
    #37562 |

    We agree 100% on this. I think we are both just trying to say the same thing in differenot ways. What I was specifying earlier was where the restrictions would lie if you did interpret the item to allow for the purchasing of weapon special abilities.

    My numbers could easily be off, as I did not work the soulknife class abilities into the mix when I did them in my head.

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